LUCIFER, ANYONE?
As the name suggests, “Lucifer“ means “Light Bearer.” From my simple understanding, and as I know him, he is one of the archangels created by God. His other two companions are Archangel Gabriel, the Messenger, and Archangel Michael, the Protector or Defender.
(Another way of looking at the three archangels is that, they are the ESSENCE, the MEDIUM, and the PRINCIPLE, which could be viewed as the Trinity of Three Realities, and one cannot exist without the other).
Before I go further my discussion on Lucifer, let’s consider these “good” and “evil.” I personally cannot accept the idea that the “good” and the “bad” co-exist in this universe from the Fall of Man until forever. If this is so, it connotes “conflict” in the Nature of God. If there is conflict in the Nature of God, then God is not a God of Love, for in Love there is NO conflict. I am talking about True Love. In True Love there is ONLY harmony, joy, peace… In God, there is “perfect marriage” of the masculine and feminine aspects (yin and yang). Thus, in essence, only the good exists in the nature of God.
If somebody says that love only gave him/her bitterness and pain, True Love is never involved in there. People who are victims of such kind of love are caused by those who do not possess True Love at all but false love. Thus, to me, the concept of good and evil are only RELATIVE, or such concept only exists in the minds of people and pertains only to those conditions which either produce “joy” or pain” to people. If it is joyful then it’s good; but if it is painful then it is bad. However, again, this concept also falls short, in the sense that something that appears painful for oneself brings the “good” to the lives of other people. Although there may be pain or hurt but the condition is raised to the level of “the better” or “more good.”
For example, parental love is willing to sacrifice even its own life for the good of the children. Another example, the Lord Jesus has that parental heart since instead of running away from the cross, he willingly suffered and gave up his own life in order to open the way such as to raise the consciousness of people to a higher level in the next hundreds of years, or for some two thousand years, to prepare people for a still higher level of consciousness which comes in due time.
Based on this very simple instance, we can have a “standard” upon which we base our judgment whether something is either “good” or “bad.” This “standard” must cater to the well-being of most if not all the people in this world. Take this “standard” for a try: If someone lives for the sake of others, for the good and welfare of others, then this is an act of “goodness”; but if someone lives only for his own benefit, or at the expense of others, then this refers to an act of being “evil.” If we have to establish the “standard” of such important issue as “goodness” and “evil,” we have to consider its impact on the lives of people, of as many if not all the people. The concept of goodness and evil, no matter how loftily, eloquently, or mystically expressed if it does NOT SERVE to transform as many people to advocate, adhere, live by the “Highest Good” (as again, envisioned by many people) then such has no value whatsoever.
Meanwhile, let us consider religion. History tells us that kingdoms, empires, dynasties rise and fall BUT religion remained constant in the lives of the same people. I would even say that if not for religion, mankind would have been perhaps extinct after some time of the Fall of Man. This story of the Fall of Man and the existence of evil can be found in almost any culture that existed in this world. In whatever form or circumstances, the Fall of Man explains how this thing called “evil” began to exist on this planet.
You doubt the existence of God? Watch the heavens or peep into the microscope. The presence of DESIGN implies that there is a GREAT DESIGNER behind it all. Who determines the purpose of eyelashes in an unborn child? Please consider this seriously and meditate on it. We find a PURPOSE in every DESIGN. This GREAT DESIGNER is PURPOSEFUL; He does not design haphazardly. The Principle of Numbers in every design is precise. Even in what appears to be chaotic such as the eruption of a volcano, every motion is governed by the Principle of Number. This GREAT DESIGNER we call God. That is why we call the universe as a COSMOS rather than as a CHAOS.
Back to Lucifer. As I have said that Lucifer is the archangel whose function or purpose is to manifest “light” or “illumination” in the life of people (also in everything else). I agree to the idea of one member that Lucifer is NOT inherently “bad” or “evil,” for the reason (mine) that the Good God or the Most Loving God created him. Let us put the idea in our mind that God cannot be a stupid God if He creates conflict within Himself. If He does this to Himself, this must be ridiculously true. We are taught that angels serve as servants of God, helping Him make the entire creation “alive” or “active.” God’s desire is to derive joy from existing or living, as anyone of us so desires. Thus, if a person does not desire to be happy, then we say that he must be crazy. All actions of a truly “wise” man should render him joy and peace rather than chaos and pain and sadness. Because of the “God within” in everyman, so everyone who is “sane” (or aligned with the “image and likeness of God” within him) does things in order to make him and all those around him (animate and inanimate) happy. When he is happy, this happy vibration radiates from him and influences all around him, and which in turn bounces back to him, thereby multiplying his joy.
I believe that Lucifer, as an angel and servant, has also free will. He was not limited or tied to God’s dictatorship of goodness. In God, there is no such thing as dictatorship imposed upon angels and human beings as we understand it, for God wants to be truly happy with His servant angels and with His children humans. In the lower echelons of life, we can say that “inanimate things” are governed by biological, physical or chemical principles or laws. For instance, the earth-moon system is governed by the Gravitational Law, which is also true with other celestial bodies in the universe. If, say, the Moon has free will, and since I presume it wants to maintain its sublime splendor and composed beauty, it could have ran away a long time ago for fear of being involved in the destructive affairs of humanity on planet earth. Then, contrary to the belief of others, Lucifer is NOT that ugly as depicted in the paintings of people. Although I did not personally encounter Lucifer, but his name suggests an entity of immense beauty – simply because “in light, by light, with light, and through light, there is beauty in the universe.”
In my mind, God’s intention was for the man and woman to grow “in light” so that in DUE time, they will be “in His image and likeness” as True Children of Light. As the woman, symbolized by Eve in Christian thought, “grows towards maturity” (towards the Greater Light), through the “teachings” or “influence” of Lucifer, she was rather drawn more to Lucifer (being a “masculine” entity). It’s very natural since “masculine energies” and “feminine energies” have that latent affinity with each other. However, in God’s original design, human Eve should not be drawn to and unite with the servant angel but to another human such as Adam, who symbolizes the “masculine” human. Lucifer was too “attractive” to Eve that she was drawn to and eventually united with him. Eve’s union with the archangel rendered her being more light, and through her acquired light (wisdom) from her union with Lucifer, she realized that she should not be united with him but with Adam, the partner God created for her.
Or, to say it in another angle/level, Eve upon uniting with Lucifer did not have that “proper feel” in their union. So, she turned to Adam and united with Adam. But Lucifer’s influence on the “personal frequency” of Eve during their union left some vibrational aberrations in it and her untimely union with Adam created a “vibrational union pattern” that does not have the “right feel”, which was passed on to the ensuing generations of humans through their union and resulting “descendants.”
And so the story goes… The consequence, with Eve’s “untimely” union with the “Light” with the promise of becoming “god-like”, dragged her down and her partner to the abyss of darkness (realm of ignorance). This is similar to the situation of others who want to know “hidden or veiled things” which it’s NOT YET the time for them to possess, and, instead of uniting with the Greater Light as the result would be if done in the right time, they fall down into darkness of serving their selfish interests and engage in such things as “black spell” in the social, political, economic, cultural and spiritual aspects of human life, spreading all sorts of mess and chaos and conflicts and divisions and pains and sufferings in the lives of people on earth.
Inharmonious vibrations then exist in the Collective or Universal Consciousness of Man, which influenced other human entities, driving them to manifest inharmony and conflict. And Jesus said to this effect: “You are the children of your father, the devil.” But in the very core of every human entity, there is an essence which is ever connected to the Great Light. So we say that the “flame of goodness” even in a criminal never dies out and in due time the once known criminal will emerge from its own ashes like a Phoenix and manifest the grandeur of an elevated human. It doesn’t matter if it takes billions and billions of years. What truly matters is that it will come to pass according to the original plan and design.
I believe in the so-called Law of Compensation. I believe in the action-reaction principle in Physics. I believe in the equilibrium of the “heat” and “coolness” in thermodynamics, in the balance of the total positive and negative forces and energies in the entire universe. And I believe that “everything will one day be reconciled under God’s feet”. I then believe that the once “evil” Lucifer will one day go back to the bosom or domain of the “ever good” and absolute God. When will that happen? When all the people in this world, in their acquired wisdom, realize that they are ALL Children of Ultimate One Light, of Father God, and establish God’s Kingdom of Light, of True Love and Peace on this planet as originally intended, to realize a ONE WORLD FAMILY UNDER GOD.
Thus, we discern and acknowledge the TRUE VALUE of each human being, such that ONLY when EVERYONE realizes his/her TRUE relationship, first with God, and secondly, with Archangel Lucifer (Satan) as a mere servant of God, who also is his/her servant, then all “evils” in this world will be wiped out forever at last, and harmony and unity will manifest once more in the Great Cycle of Life…
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Zephonith. on -
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Permalink Reply by Zephonith. on
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"Yes please"
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Permalink Reply by Joe B on -
or, in other words, take this post "well-salted" LoL
there's heaps I'd like to pick at, but the OP is somewhat disorganized and rambly (I'm sure I'm guilty of the same, if not here then elsewhere for sure), and I don't know if I care to put in the same effort as Swirls (some very good points in there btw, Swirls)
one thing, though, is that even if the light bearer returns to "the bosom of the absolute God" (and I've also entertained the notion that this was already the case) - that doesn't necessarily mean that he (or she, as there are some who see this as a feminine principle) is your friend, or that he loves or even likes mankind
just a thought
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Permalink Reply by Florineo Jerez on -
With all good wishes for Peace, Light and Love...
I came across a discussion on Lucifer somewhere. Being new to the Temple, I found difficulty in navigating. I was supposed to post it under THAT discussion but I could no longer find it. Please pardon me and thank you for your kindness. I simply wish to share my thoughts because I would like to have more insights about certain topics. I wish to solicit the thoughts of brilliant minds so that I may learn from them also. I appreciate the broader and deeper knowledge and understanding of the kind members of the Temple.
I am NOT a member of any esoteric group and I have not taken any subjects in Philosophy or Theology, so I am NOT promoting any esoteric group. I am only a simple classroom teacher in Computer Literacy and Geometry serving in a remote place far from civilization. The Internet Service in our locality is only a year and a few months and it appears like an iceberg to me. So to say, I seem to be alone in my own world with practically nobody to share. In the past, when I attempted to tell people about my thoughts and beliefs, engaged in some pranic healing to alleviate the discomfort of some people, or helped some students who were “possessed” by so-called fallen angels, they would think I am crazy, or I have a demon in me. I was really happy to find TempleIlluminatus because I was thinking that through it I could know and understand myself better as well as the thoughts that come to me. I am happy for you because you found the Temple perhaps a long time ago and you have a venue to “feel at home” with the other members who vibrate the same frequency with you.
I encode my thoughts as they come to me. At times, I am desperate to find the “right” words or terms to use to express the contents of my mind, and I feel so low when I read the sharings of the other members here because they are so learned about lots of topics. I derived my concept or insights on “vibrations” and “frequencies” from the subject Physics. So I consider them “basic” for all people who have gone high school have taken this topic in senior high or Grade 10. I coined the other terms that I use, or I borrow terms from my readings for really I do not have my own. If they happen to be similar to what others use in the same or different context, it is NOT intended.
I do not believe in a GOD DUO; there is only ONE GOD. I do not believe in a God of Goodness and a god of evil who are in conflict with each other all the time and forever. The DUALITY that I observed are: 1) all creation has a visible body and an invisible intelligence or spirit which determines the structure and behavior of each entity, 2) all creation has positive and negative aspects in each entity, and 3) all creation has that masculine and feminine aspects in each entity. The Cosmos is composed of the visible physical world and the invisible world of the spirit. The relationship between these two aspects are governed by Principle (the Physical Laws and the Spiritual Laws). In the universe we discern interactions and relationships. We say that everything in the universe is interconnected and such interconnectedness is governed by Principle. Action-Reaction. Give-and-Receive. Something acts and something or several things are affected by such act. The sun burns it fuel and radiates to all directions in space to affect the planets and other sun systems in the universe.
At one time, I asked myself about the goodness and justice of God relative to what is actually happening in the world. We all see that “innocent” people and children get killed in natural calamities or man-made tragedies. If I ask myself why does God allow it to happen, I am only thinking from my own limited point of view. Then, one time while I was clearing our backyard with weeds, it came to my mind that the situation I was in could parallel the situation that those unfortunate people have. I get rid of the weeds to fulfill a higher purpose, that is, to have a clean backyard. Then, it came to my mind that to sympathize (it’s natural human reaction) with those people are only from my human point of view. I would think that God looks at us from HIS point of view, and I presume (PRESUME) that God doesn’t worry about people getting killed because they have spirits anyway that lives for eternity. Or if we believe in the so-called reincarnation, people live again and again until they fulfill their ultimate purpose of existence. For example, if I get killed due to accident (heaven forbid) , leaving some children still in college, would I from the grave cry out loud resentfully to God: “God, why?” In my gained insight, I would peacefully accept the situation and pass on to higher worlds to fulfill the purpose intended for me and I wouldn’t worry about the loved ones I left behind because the ever-loving God “will take care of them anyway.”
I do not believe that life is a STRUGGLE as Darwin says it’s the ”survival of the fittest.” It’s only “appearances”; how would the lion survive if it will not eat deer? Will the carrots complain if we eat it to vanquish our hunger? So, the “food chain” is very natural and there is no struggle in it. In the various strata of human life, from the family, community, nation and world, there are “struggles”. Again, the “loss” and the “pain” are only mere “appearances”. For instance, my celfone was stolen and it was a loss on my part. But that situation, led me to another situation wherein I procured a new and much better model. Our diseased palay was grazed by a carabao and it was a loss on our part. But after two weeks that palay grew new and healthy leaves and rendered us good harvest. My sister was turned down by a company but that situation led her to process for a more promising job abroad and now she is happy working with her husband abroad. The list can be endless… Maybe, if a child grew in a home where there are lots of “struggles” within the family itself, then he/she would grow to view life in the world as Darwin puts it. But if a child grew in a home environment where abounding love, mutual cooperation and mutual understanding exists, then he/she will grow in such kind of interaction and relationship with other people and would not even bother about Darwin’s theory on “struggles”. Considering the human body in its wholeness for instance, the physiological processes involve “constructive” and “destructive” (anabolism and catabolism) processes. So, can either view it as a “struggle among the elements” or simply “physiological interactions” which contribute to the over-all well-being of the human body. Our past experiences or the kind of environment we grew do really influence our world view or how we look at life as a whole.
I have no intention to be destructive. If ever there is that I want to destroy, it is this anxiety, it is my own ignorance and limited knowledge and understanding. So, I would be happy if members of the Temple could reach for my quivering hand and say to me: “Hey, Flor, come on. Let’s go to my world. There are many interesting and beautiful things here to explore and discover. I’ll teach you how to open your Third Eye and see the invisible world. I’ll teach you and guide you how to astral travel and let’s visit other civilizations in the nearby star.” I am a newcomer to the Temple (a week or so) and if I have proven to myself that most if not all members in the Temple have this HEART, then I will be happy to recommend this website to my students in school and my friends (who are ready to receive the Light). As for now, I am still exploring...
Please bear with me if I consider a few topics in a single posting. If it is okay with you, just kindly give your comments in your willingness to help me out with them. In due time, with your kind guidance I will be able to go smoothly through the byways of the Temple. Thank you so much and may God bless you with your patience and kindness. PEACE…. LOVE….
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Permalink Reply by Heather M Brennan on -
Shhhhhnap.... Luv
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Permalink Reply by Heather M Brennan on
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Luv joes rebuttal for clarification
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Permalink Reply by Zephonith. on
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If anyone is interested and wishes to find out a little more about the real Lucifer they are welcome to have a look over two of my recent blog posts on the Divine Masculine Principle of the Universe.
With respect to other religions who persist in trying to diabolise the Pagan Goddesses and Gods; Lucifer was made synonymous with the Christian Devil only and not with the Jewish version of an ancient Babylonian Underworld deity, Ha-Satan.
The Name Lucifer means Light-Bringer and is a Name shared with several Pagan Divinities, including Diana Lucifera. More of this pertinent information in my blogs.
Over the years (and remember that the Christian version of a devil was only invented by the Church around a thousand years after Jesus existed) - so not even the early Christians believed or knew of a devil themselves originally- the concept of this evil devil of the Patriarchal pantheons has morphed and developed into incorporating practically all of the Pagan Deities and Nature Spirits.
The Church desperately needs a devil to survive and justify their fear-based doctrines which are designed to keep people in a state of virtual slavery by this devil's existence. Well, I guess thoughts do become things ~ and your'e welcome to it, it's not my place to interfere in anyone's spirituality - but Pagans are free of your judgement and your hell of torment. This Devil exists for you but not for Pagans.Nature-based Pagans that is.
The last few lines of this blog sum it up perfectly. The Christian Devil is the other half of this God. They are the same- of the same pantheon.They work together to oppress humankind.
And that pantheon is not Pagan.
Pagan spirituality far preceded any notion of an evil devil , let alone a supreme male god.
Patriarchal religions differ from Pagan Spirituality in one major regard, and that is, Pagans are Yin-Yang centred and are Love-based, while the Dualist, or Patriarchal religions are fear-based.
And, many Pagans actually do venerate the real Christ ~ the Pagan Ascended Master and God residing as Christ Consciousness in the Sphere of Beauty, together with Lucifer, His Namesake.
As I say, each to her/his own and thanks for writing an entertaining blog. It is really interesting to see how different people view the Divinities of other faiths.
When Jesus said, "Love thy Neighbour as thyself"; he was referring to Pagan Deities and Pagans. In fact, Jesus, or Issa , also loved and venerated Woman ~ and I noticed in the blog that there is no mention of any Goddess.
"A Goddessless religion is halfway to being Atheist"
~ Dion Fortune, from her book, "The Mystical Qabalah"
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Permalink Reply by Zephonith. on
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"There is no right or wrong;
only learning from our experiences"
~ The Buddha
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Permalink Reply by Zephonith. on
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There is a big difference between the original Lucifer, the Divine Masculine Principle of the Universe, the consort of Diana, the Great Goddess;
and your version of Lucifer, which is the false, Patriarchal version of our Pagan Divinity linked with or even appearing as your evil devil, whom you call Satan.
I just wanted to make the basic distinction clear.
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Permalink Reply by Florineo Jerez on
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Thank you for the kind consideration. PEACE to everyone in the Temple. I appreciate your response to my post on “Lucifer, Anyone?”
I have a different viewpoint of things that needs also to be clarified. I have insights that need verifications if others have them also. In the world, there are variations of thoughts. We can give our opinions but there must exist the ONE TRUE THOUGHT, something which ALL can accept and adopt and live by. It’s a joy to hear things from brilliant minds. It’s my quest and it’s a joy to discover this ONE TRUE THOUGHT by which ALL of us are UNITED in True Brotherhood, in True Love and Peace.
If I have to dwell in my “own” world, I see things as “light/energy entities” or “psychic entities” (sorry for my limited terminologies) belonging to different strata of manifestation and expression. These “light entities” have different “intelligences” or “vibration/frequency matrix” and people label them according to how they manifest to them, individually or in groups. Thus, we come up with labels such as proton, electron, hydrogen, water, salt, stone, air, fire, earth, moon, sun, galaxy. People observe the interplay of forces and energies, and the recurring patterns, how they affect things and human life, and they label them with the various names of gods and goddesses, angels and demons, nature spirits… The Christians, based on the Bible, identified the three major manifestations or functions of a group of energies and forces and how they affect human life and label them as Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel – then with the minor manifestations with their corresponding labels or names. It is but natural that these forces and energies are labeled to serve as reference in our mode of communication. Only that people from varied cultures and/or religions give them different (or similar) names/labels, with concepts associated with them, and then agree/argue over similarities/differences. Maybe, (just maybe) in the higher world, such labels or names still exist but in a different context (“imagery language” perhaps), since every “entity of intelligence” interact with each other in certain ways. Thus, we also have mental/psychic interactions, social or collective interactions and they are labeled as love, compassion, sympathy, anger, jealousy, envy, etc. This is similar to the interaction of the different frequencies of voice, violin, piano, saxophone, flute, drum beats… and images to come up with a “composite frequency matrix” etched on the surface of a VCD, which can be replayed through a player or a computer. The human intelligence or entity identifies or distinguishes music from sheer noise based on cycles, rhythms, harmonics, octaves, whatever… Again, concepts on vibrations and/or frequencies are BASIC only that the common people do not pay much attention to them. If I have to relate to the common people, surely I cannot simply talk about the summation or interpolation of magnitudes and frequencies to come up with composite frequency patterns/matrices with their names/labels as such and such. I associate names or labels to them when needed. So we use the label “evil” or “demonic” to such vibrations/frequencies which are chaotic or inharmonious to humans and their affairs, and “good” or “heavenly” to such vibrations/frequencies which have effects of harmony and wellness to humans and their affairs. In my world, I only have pure vibrations or frequencies and vibration/frequency matrices, energy entities with their “personalities” as displayed by the patterns/matrices UNIQUE to their manifestation/expression, and their interaction with each other based on Principle in the “spiritual realm”. Simply put, I see specks of lights, stationary or moving, rigid or fluid, differing in patterns, shapes, size, color and intensity with their kaleidoscopic interactions, singly or in clusters. Everything else is mere appearances. I may enjoy the vista myself dwelling in such “world” but I serve only myself. It may be a privilege on our part to discern things unseen or hidden from others, however, we also need to fulfill our purpose in life – to be “salt” or “light” for others, our brothers and sisters. We cannot dwell in our personal pedestal in our own glory. We need to reach out to OTHERS.
Thus, we cannot avoid the fact that certain concepts have seeped into the minds of people and consequently influenced their minds and their lifestyles (for good or otherwise) and how they deal/interact with other people. Granting that “Lucifer” or “Satan” does not exist in my personal dictionary, but we cannot deny the effects of evil in the lives of people, and these manifestations or phenomena are for real. Just like how the concepts of gods and goddesses (as so labeled) affect the lives of people who believe in them. We also are aware of experiments on “suggestions” or hypnosis that something that does not even exist can and do really affect people. Considering also the “subconscious”, “magic spells”, “curses”, whatever… that do affect people mentally, psychologically and physically ... People may or may not believe (actually existing or not) in “angels”, “demons”, “gods and goddesses”, whatever label people associate with them, such concepts affect people to a lesser or greater degree. Again, somebody with advocacy to Darwinian concepts has a different tone of “human relation” from that of a person who advocates Mother Theresa’s “love till it hurts.”
What I am driving at is how a “human intelligence”, INSTEAD of merely dwelling in his own world which he can only share with a very few, can be of HELP to as many people as possible in this world. And blessed people like Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius, Jesus, others, live their lives along this paradigm. They are so-called CENTRAL FIGURES because civilizations, specifically, minds of people, are elevated to some higher level through their thoughts and living examples. I would consider them “overt influences” and of course, we could not ignore the “covert” influences radiated by the good people in the monasteries and elsewhere, who, through prayer and meditation, radiate the vibrations of love and peace to all mankind and everything, or charge the Universal Consciousness with such kinds of energies to affect the collective mental setup of people on this planet, to create certain conditions that CONTRIBUTE to the welfare and wellness of ALL the creation. So, in history and religion, there is the so-called “avatar”, “anointed one”, “messiah”, whatever, who are sent at certain times (turning points) in history. Then with them we have which influences the lives of many people on this earth. Is it not religion? Religion does not only connote a specific thought system but also the organized people in it – the congregation. (So as with the Esoteric or Mystery Schools which advocate, live by, and safeguard exclusive wisdom). But religion which connotes “to bind” seems to be a paradox in itself. Members from different faiths (even within faith) are divided and they “kill” each other either literally or spiritually. Nonetheless, we cannot ignore the value of religion and these “central figures sent by heaven at certain times” because of their impact on the lives of people in civilizations. I believe that it will be more worthwhile or fulfilling to us to belong to the ONE messianic theatre to come up with a ONE masterpiece that would transform the flows and turns of ONE human history on this ONE planet. In our intelligence and wisdom, we identify or recognize a Central Figure who is commissioned in this period of time, to the extent that we offer ourselves, our family, our nation, our belief system (for commonly shared values), even our own religion (if we belong to one), just to have that FOCUS or convergence of the forces or energies of Love and Peace for the GOOD and WELLNESS of ALL.
With ALL GOOD WISHES for PEACE and LOVE and LIGHT….
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Permalink Reply by Heather M Brennan on
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Lucifer WAS an Archangel... he IS not currently an Archangel, and, therefore, leads one (or me) to believe, that he was not following in the "light"...
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Permalink Reply by Florineo Jerez on
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Sister Heather, nice comment. Sorry, I have rather overlooked. I stand corrected. WAS and NOT IS. Lucifer WAS an archangel. I have a BELIEF (for reasons) that one day he will regain his being an archangel once more and he will again worship and serve the Only Creator for good. He will not do it on his own though. His coming back to God's domain is THROUGH people. What do you think?
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